Jasmine M. El-Gamal is a political analyst, writer and speaker. Her areas of expertise include U.S. foreign policy, the Middle East, Islam in the West, the Syria refugee crisis, and cross-cultural strategic communications. Previously, Jasmine was a Senior Fellow with the Middle East program at the Atlantic Council, and an advisor in the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy.

Olivia Kearney is the Community Building Officer for Project CRAAFT (Collaboration, Research and Analysis Against Financing of Terrorism) funded by the European Union at RUSI Europe. She works to build and engage a network to promote cross-border connectivity and greater counter terrorist financing (CTF) capacity across the EU and its neighbourhood. 

Navigating your way in any career can be incredibly difficult and a lot more taxing than people tend to let on. This is especially true in the security realm where it always seems like there’s some new concept to get caught up on or the feeling that everyone around you is way ahead of you in their career. There can be many different factors such as imposter syndrome, general competitiveness, and just dealing with people that can take a huge toll on your wellbeing. But it seems that not a lot of people talk about this out loud, which can lead individuals to feel very isolated. Through many discussions with people in the field, I realised that these fears and stresses we put on ourselves are a lot more common than we tend to give ourselves credit for. I first got the idea for this discussion when I saw a thread by Jasmine El-Gamal on Twitter, where she had an incredibly open discussion about struggles in the workplace and how it can affect mental health, and how it is so important to speak more openly about it. There are so many stresses in the workplace that too quickly get internalized which can easily worsen the problem. This made me think about the ways in which people in this field experience stress, and what we can possibly do to mitigate these stressors or fears going forward. And I think speaking so openly and normalizing them is a vital first step. This interview with Jasmine aims to be this first step, that I hope can help normalise some of these stressors for both myself and for others. 

Olivia: I can only speak from the experience of someone in a more junior role, still trying to navigate their way in this industry. I don’t think the issues that cause me stress are by any means unique and yet I rarely see them openly discussed. To give a bit of my own background - entering into the field of NatSec/CT was a big career change for me. My background is in economics and psychology and I had previously been working in commercial real estate. So when I decided to make the switch, it instantly felt like I was playing a huge catch up game. As I continue to make my way through this field, a lot of the time it has felt a bit like I am throwing whatever I can against the wall to see what sticks and what doesn’t. There's often a quick dependence on the notion to ‘fake it til you make it’, but realistically it would be so nice and relieving to every once in a while see a bit more transparency in the people behind the work. The whole point of this discussion is to hopefully hit on some areas of difficulty that others have faced and just to have an open discussion from someone who is still relatively new with someone who is well established and respected in the field.

Jasmine: Absolutely, it's such an important conversation and it's particularly important to remind ourselves and others not to be afraid to speak about difficult topics. I used to think ‘Fake it until you make it’ was really good advice, when really we should be showing up as ourselves and believing that is enough...more like ‘work it till you make it!

Topic One: Finding a path

Olivia:  When I first started looking for jobs in this sector, I was given the advice that I could apply to as many places as possible, but ultimately the connections I make would prove to have the greatest impact. When I first moved to London, I had this great plan of attending different events, setting up networking calls, etc. Then, of course, COVID-19 happened and threw a wrench in that. So I decided to make the most of lockdown and I made a list of people whose work I had been following and that interested me and proceeded to set up as many calls as possible. The point of the calls was to find out about what people were doing and how they got there. I find that you can get degree after degree, but the practical side of actually navigating the job industry isn't always directly addressed. These calls proved to be incredibly helpful in building connections but a piece of advice that kept popping up over and over was ‘be known for that one thing’, ‘be known for a specific speciality so when people need to speak to an expert, they know to go to you’. On a rational level I completely understand this, but practically speaking this advice absolutely terrified me. I am where I am today because of the most unexpected paths and because of my ability to remain open to change. So I struggle with this idea of picking that ‘one thing’ out of fear that I am turning my back on a number of other options and that I could be limiting myself. So how does one find that balance in this industry? How do you stay open to possibilities and broaden your horizons and skill set, while also becoming an expert with a specific specialised skill set? 

Jasmine: I would always get this advice when I was first starting out, and even now sometimes! I feel strongly that you should follow your passions, interests and heart, and see what both makes you happy and what motivates you. That might be one thing or it might be five things. Some of the most interesting and successful people I know have more than one passion/area of expertise. Look at people you admire. How did they get to where they are? What are their interests outside of work? Reach out to people, introduce yourself, ask for a 15 minute chat or, once circumstances allow, a 30 minute coffee. Remember that people love to talk about themselves!

The only thing I would caution is not to spread yourself too thin trying different things. That’s definitely something I was guilty of in the past, and you end up doing everything ‘okay’ instead of a couple of things really well. What that balance looks like is different for everyone. Bottom line: Be confident in your interests and follow your instincts.  

Topic Two: Learning how to take up space

Olivia: I found that a big part of networking in this industry comes from attending events, webinars in this case, as well as publishing or posting ideas. But this then requires having something to say, then saying it openly and leaving it out on the table. This is where that ugly friend, imposter syndrome, comes rearing its big head. If you’re like me, you have this insane fear that you are going to open your mouth and say something incredibly wrong or stupid and that it is going to haunt you for the rest of your career and that’s how people will define you. Yes, that sounds dramatic, but it doesn't make the fear any less real. So how do you navigate this area of learning to take up space with your ideas, and speaking out with what you are thinking. There are so many times where I’ll be listening to a talk or see someone's Twitter thread and I immediately think of a question or comment but too often hold back because of that fear. This also seeps into putting together any publications. There will be days where you have a great idea so you start the research process and gather up anything you can find in the topic. But from my own personal experience, I manage to procrastinate the actual writing by continuously doing more research. Then there comes this point of thinking, ‘why am I trying to write on this subject when I don’t know nearly enough’, or that I am not qualified enough. So how do you get to a point where you feel you ‘know enough’ to put your thoughts down on paper. 

Jasmine: When I was first starting out in my career, I often made the mistake of speaking at meetings or events just for the sake of saying something, almost as if I wanted to prove my worth in being there. That comes with inexperience and insecurity and you grow out of it, trust me! I l eventually learned that the smartest people in the room listened...a lot! They would only speak when they really had something to contribute. That gets to your second point: how to know when to start speaking/writing and stop researching? This is easier said than done, I know that. But I think accepting that no one ever knows everything about any topic releases that fear a bit. People are always learning, always researching, always writing! That’s true for books, articles, speeches, you name it. So instead of asking yourself, ‘do I know everything I need to know about this,’ try asking, ‘what do I want to say about this particular topic in this particular speech or article?’ Pick a piece of it and write that piece. Break things down and tackle them over time. By building on each previous piece, you are establishing yourself as a thoughtful, interesting person worth following/reading. Remember, trusting yourself is half the battle, often the harder half!

Topic Three: Finding a balance between pushing yourself and then knowing when to pause/refresh

Olivia: Continuing from this discussion of putting yourself out there in terms of publications, events, etc., this is something that's not necessarily specific to only this field, but in terms of navigating your career as a whole. It's the idea of not getting trapped in this place where you define your worth and your ‘standing’ through your outputs alone. When you work off that mindset, you quickly see that it’s never enough. There is always one more paper, one more event, one more course, one more something. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all about the competitive spirit and the drive to get ahead and make a name for yourself. But at what point do you learn to balance knowing when is the time to push yourself versus when is the time to stop and just come up for air. Especially those in a more junior position or those who are just starting out who are trying to make a name for themselves and get themselves noticed - me included - I’ve seen that it can be a bit of this harsh reality of working so hard to reach this proverbial ‘finish line’ that you set for yourself only to be so burned out by the time you get there and realize that that ‘race’ hasn’t even started. I know that a lot of this comes from having confidence in yourself and the work that you do, but then it leads to this chicken and egg situation: how do you get confidence without pushing yourself, and how do you know when to just take a step back and be confident in that decision. For myself personally, I ended up in a situation where I was just saying yes to anything and everything, I was attending every webinar I set my sights on, enrolling in a bunch of different online courses, trying to stay up to date with current discussions in the field - and realistically this just isn't possible or maintainable. You quickly get to a point where you are half-assing a bunch of stuff rather than being great at a select few things. I’m sure this is a skill that you learn to master as you move through your career, but what advice would you give to those who are struggling with this as well as tips to avoid reaching that point of burnout?

Jasmine: First of all, remember that this is not a race. Twitter will still be there even if you don’t tweet for a couple of days. Events will keep happening even if you can’t attend all of them. I wish I had paid more attention to my mental health early on, so this is an issue I feel really strongly about. Take care of yourself first, and the rest will follow. Before you say yes, ask yourself four questions: Do I need to do this? Do I want to do this? Will this further my goals? Will my attendance reap value for myself or others? If the answer “no” to most of the questions, then pass! The last thing you want to do is set yourself for burnout when you are just hitting your stride. Remember, your career is a marathon. Be intentional. Take your time. And remember to have a little fun along the way!

Olivia: I first want to say a huge thank you to Jasmine for agreeing to do this with me. It was such a fun experience. The hope behind something like this piece is really to get more of an open discussion going and to challenge some of the fears and stressors that we tend to build up for ourselves and others. More often than not, we are not alone in the fears that we hold in our career. It can be hard to be open about them but most of the time it will be such a rewarding process.